Comments on: High German power prices, low monthly bills? https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/ The Global Energiewende Mon, 07 Jan 2019 08:17:07 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.1.1 By: David Jones https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-10710 Mon, 07 Jan 2019 08:17:07 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-10710 In reply to David Jones.

Some correction to the above. My generally low consumption skewed my impression of these heaters. Where the average in my building is about 4200kWh per household per year, this is only about 2000kWh for my household. So while the above is more or less true, I will likely consume 2000kWh-2500kWh for heating electrically with a total annual electricity consumption of about 3000kWh, a heat pump could reduce this considerably since the heat energy provided is generally >=3x greater than the electric energy input and would be substantially cheaper than fossil fuels in my region.

In my case, there will be additional costs for the electric heaters compared to similar use of the standard system but since my consumption is quite low, these costs will probably not be higher than the average costs of anyone here heating with fossil fuels. In fact, since I also undertook some energy saving and quality of life improvement measures in terms of hot water use, my expectation is that the amount reimbursed to me after the annual bill is calculated will be similar or greater than the amount I pay for general electric heating in my home.

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By: David Jones https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-8234 Sun, 21 Oct 2018 16:38:19 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-8234 In reply to James Wimberley.

This is a fairy tail in terms of heating that people tell themselves because they do not know better or that fossil fuel industry lobbyists have been spreading.

I pay around $0.30 per kWh with an annual bill of about $180 and associated appliance consumption of about 600kWh. Recently I decided to add heating to this since my energy is 100% renewable and my consumption average has been steady for a long time. That will probably add another 1000 – 1500kWh (worst case 3350kWh if I were to heat for 12 hours over 180 days in the year which seems unlikely) thus placing me most likely at about 2000kWh with heating (21-24c Thermostat setting which I find very pleasant, the residence is about 170m3).

This was done without any “installation”, just by the use of Mica radiative heating technology which is very simple, light, durable and efficiently heats through convection and volumetric energy transfer throughout a substantial portion of a normal room. That’s why it’ll increase the temperature by 3-4 degrees in just 15 minutes or less depending on the size of the room after which it disables completely and continues to emit heat for a while. It also works almost instantaneously when it heats instead of wasting heat for large metal elements like standard radiators.

The cost of the above is actually considerably lower than if I were to heat with the available fossil fuel, those heating costs alone are around higher than my combined energy costs with electric heating. At the end of the day, my heating and general appliance energy cost is, wait for it, about $600.

That is what is possible with modern technology and intelligent energy use. People keep whining about absolutely nothing.

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By: Bob https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-7414 Tue, 21 Aug 2018 06:18:32 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-7414 In reply to heinbloed.

I’m unsure what it means that your ‘relatives never paid € 0.30/kWh’. They paid more… less….? Anyway, my kWh price is exactly 29.95 cents / kWh – close to the average shown here in the graphs above. Factoring in the monthly Grundpreis (€7.75 / month) my kWh price works out to be 34.97 cents.
BTW – I am also one of those guys using Verivox to find the bet price each year when the contract comes up for renewal, so I’m not sure it can be found too much cheaper elsewhere.

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By: Serhiy https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-6897 Fri, 18 May 2018 16:41:57 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-6897 In Ukraine gas cost 25 euro cents.

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By: Vivi https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-6405 Thu, 01 Mar 2018 12:40:25 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-6405 In reply to Jarmo.

I, as an (Eastern) German, have never even seen a gas stove in my 35 years on earth – not in the shop, not at friends’ houses. My parents threw out their old propane-powered one as a potential health hazard when I was born. (Leaking gas would collect on the floor, possibly asphyxiating a crawling baby.)

I agree about the heating though. So far, it makes a lot more financial sense for us to crank up the central heating for the whole house rather than switching on an electric radiator or heated fan in the specific rooms we’re actually using. Gas is just that much cheaper per kWh.

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By: heinbloed https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-6328 Fri, 09 Feb 2018 15:45:46 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-6328 In reply to Jarmo.

Right.

Most dependent on gas are the Netherlands as far as I know, the household electricity costs half as much as in Germany.

https://www.platts.com/latest-news/natural-gas/london/earthquake-with-20-magnitude-hits-groningen-gas-26889179

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By: James Wimberley https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-6324 Thu, 08 Feb 2018 17:03:46 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-6324 In reply to S. Herb.

The deterrent to EVs is a big point. In the USA, anecdotally a fair number of EV buyers also have solar panels, and see their cars as self-reliant “citizen mobility”. An economist would say there is no connection, apart from a tiny number of full-on autarks. The marginal supply of electricity is from the grid, essentially at night when the car is charging. By all means do both, but the cost calculations are independent. But economists don’t capture what people feel, and in this case they feel that both are part of one sustainability project.

Craig: please write about citizen autonomy and evs! Germany is backward here, not a leader.

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By: Jarmo https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-6320 Thu, 08 Feb 2018 07:13:20 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-6320 Germans cook and heat their homes with natural gas. More natural gas is used this way than in electricity generation. Germans consume almost 4 times more natural gas per capita than Americans.

Switching to electricity will increase Geman electricity bills. Also, electrification of transport will add to household electricity consumption. Electric car that is driven 15-20 000 km annually will increase average current German household electricity consumption by 50%

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By: heinbloed https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-6317 Wed, 07 Feb 2018 15:23:07 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-6317 In reply to S. Herb.

A simple method to reduce the metered electricity is a ‘guerilla PV installation’ a plug-and-play system.
This would reduce at least the daytime grid power, if fixed vertically esp.in winter time:

http://www.dgs.de/news/en-detail/151217-balkonkraftwerke-buergerrecht-statt-grauzone/

machine translation:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dgs.de%2Fnews%2Fen-detail%2F151217-balkonkraftwerke-buergerrecht-statt-grauzone%2F&edit-text=

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By: S. Herb https://energytransition.org/2018/02/high-german-power-prices-low-monthly-bills/#comment-6311 Tue, 06 Feb 2018 20:01:08 +0000 https://energytransition.org/?p=16671#comment-6311 The high price is however a disincentive to switching to EVs or heat pumps. The energy tax on natural gas used for heating seems to be 0.55 cent/kWh, and the heating oil tax is also, I think (I haven’t performed the necessary heat content conversions) modest compared to the electricity taxes. It would be psychologically beneficial if the significant efficiency improvements for EVs and heat pumps also translated to a real cost saving.

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